00:00
Fella Hadj Kaddour (FHK): Hello everyone and welcome to our podcast, « En fleurs, plus en feu ». My name is Fella Hadj Kaddour and I will be your host for today’s episode. « En fleurs, plus en feu» is a podcast that aims to put forward the work of the project « Promotion des Actrices racisées en recherche partenariale au Québec », the PARR project. And now, today’s episode.
*music*
00:44
FHK: Before starting today’s episode, I want to recognize that we are reuniting today on the land of the Kanien:keha’ka nation, unceded land of Tiohtià:ke, here on Turtle Island. We would like to express all our solidarity with the Indigenous communities that are fighting for self-determination. We honor the traditional guardians of this territory.
Today, we gather for a second episode that will address the issue of non-mixity when sharing experiences of violence and injustices lived in collaborative research in Quebec. But first, what is non-mixity, chosen non-mixity, and reuniting between peers based on shared experiences of discrimination, to share these experiences, but also to find collective strategies of liberation. Non-mixity is also a political tool used by many discriminated groups. It is always specified in the events of the PARR project that the events are only for racialized folks who have carried out collaborative research in Quebec, regardless of their gender identity. For today’s episode, we are delighted to welcome some of the participants in the community activities organized by the PARR project. With us first, Michelle Martineau. After a master’s degree in French public law obtained in Guadeloupe in 2013, Michelle flies to Montreal in 2015 to pursue a second master degree in political science at UQAM. Since 2018, she is a PhD candidate in political science at Université de Montréal, where her research interests revolve around colonization, decolonization, race, identity, Caribbean geopolitics, or political sociology. Her thesis aims to show how the focus on political and cultural identity has an impact on the future of the Guadeloupean archipelago, in favor of status quo, autonomy, or independence. Michelle is also a painter. Thank you, Michelle, for being here.
02:45
Michelle Martineau (MM): Thank you very much.
FHK: We also have with us Mélissa Lormil. So Mélissa, accredited mediator with the Ministère de la Justice du Québec, is a community organizer with many years of community experience. Mélissa obtained a bachelor’s degree in social sciences with a minor in criminology from the University of Ottawa, as well as a second bachelor’s degree in health and social sciences. Currently a master’s degree candidate in intercultural mediation at University of Sherbrooke, she is writing her final essay on the relevance of intercultural skills and taking different learning styles into account when designing intercultural courses. For a year now, Mélissa has been president of the board of directors of the Quebec Association of Intercultural Mediators. Hello Mélissa and thank you for being with us.
Mélissa Lormil (ML): Hello, the pleasure is mine.
FHK: Finally, with us, Julie Quynh Nhi Tran, PhD candidate in social work at Université de Montréal and lecturer at UQAC. Julie carries out research on anti-Asian racism, sexual violences and gendered violences through a decolonial feminist framework. For many years, Julie was involved in anti-racist and feminist community organizing in Quebec. She is one of the founding members of the Coalition Asiatique pour une Relève Émancipatrice during the pandemic. Since 2020, she has spoken out several times in the media on issues of racism and violence against women. Hello Julie, thank you for being here.
Julie Quynh Nhi Tran (JT): Hello, you are welcome.
FHK: So, we’re going to start by asking you a few questions about the activities you took part in as part of the PARR project. And so, I would like to ask you, there were many activities. During the first episode, Ornella Tannous talked about the different activities that took place. Can you tell me what activities you’ve been involved in over the past year with the PARR project.
04:34
MM: I participated in the first activity, in April 2023, with guest Marie Da Sylva, it was a three-day forum. And frankly, I loved it. I had initially hesitated to go there, but when I saw that it was addressed to racialized people, it was really…There was the safe space side, and I told myself, why not. And since, well I absolutely would not, it really gave me a different view of things. Also, I created links with other people, I met people, well, I could have imagined what so…, there’s that. And then there was, last September, we had a day with the PARR project, so there we discussed other aspects…So for these two activities.
ML: On my part, I took part in the forum, one of the three days, I think it was the Friday. And then, I took part in two cohort days, both of which I think were in September.
JT: And on my part, I had the opportunity to participate to a control group, on the questions to be asked to the groups that the PARR project wanted to consult. We talked a lot about ethical questions in collaborative research and other relevant topics, and I was able to meet some wonderful people with community and institutional stakeholders, but also university teachers, it was truly enriching. I participated to the forum, the PARR cohort that my colleagues mentioned, and then in October, one of the activities on collaborative research with Indigenous people, by Indigenous women panelists. So, these forms of activities have been super enriching too. So, I took part in several PARR project activities.
FHK: We have a regular *laughs*. I would also like to know what motivated your participation to these activities, what is the fact that it was non-mixed, was it something that prompted you to participate.
JT: On my part, my participation was really to encourage the PARR team, since I met them first during the informal activities. I also knew some people that worked within the PARR project, like Samia, who already worked, and we met, and who also brought me several arguments to come to the forum, for example. It’s still three days of mobilization. And after, there was all the relevancy of the topics, and the fact that you feel rejuvenated at the end of these types of activities, so yes, non-mixity did have an impact on my choice to come to the activities.
ML: I’d also say that non-mixity was a factor that facilitated my participation. At that moment I was going through, how should I put it, some situations that made me need to get together with people who might have been in these kinds of situations, and it just made me feel better. So, I decided to get involved. Also, the fact that it was somewhat related to the workplace contributed to my participation and commitment.
MM: Well, it is true that yes, it had an impact on my participation. It must also be said that the first person who told me about this project is Adeline Louison, founder of Noire & Femme, who had already told me that in a few months’ time, this is what’s going to happen. And so, when the forum happened, so I saw a bit of the description and said to myself « I absolutely must go there », because I’d realized during my academic career that I didn’t have a space where I could speak freely, clearly say what was wrong without being judged, catalogued, that type of things. It was very important to be with people who I felt had been in the same situations as me. And as I said earlier, I absolutely wouldn’t have, because I really discovered that many racialized women who had experienced similar situations, and it comforted me that this was the right thing to do, right from the start.
FHK: And according to you, what is the importance of non-mixity when it comes to talking about discrimination or violence? How does being non-mixed become necessary at that point.
MM: Well precisely, it legitimizes our voice. We are not judging; we don’t come to question our experiences and it’s…I think that everyone that participated in different activities, it’s what they are looking for. Because whether in the academic or professional field, we have, we are faced with realities where we say well, we’re going to denounce this or that practice and we are more likely to be told: well no, you are hallucinating, it’s not that, you are blowing things out of proportion, when no, the problem is there. We have to say it, it must be emphasized. But it is true that, for example we are a minority person in quotation marks, that seeks to assert its rights and freedom, it becomes very complicated. So yeah, of course it is very important.
10:59
ML: I would also like to say that it is important because it allows us to talk about it. To be recognized, to a certain extent, without necessarily having expectations. So, the fact that we’re perhaps stepping outside the framework in which these discriminations or these experiences might have been lived, it just allows us to be able to discuss. And as Michelle said, legitimizes our voice.
JT: It also removes the racial burden that can be felt when we are in non-chosen mixity spaces, doesn’t it. Then at the end, it allows us to put into words what we may have experienced, and when someone share a testimonial, it echoes our own experiences, a lot of sharing of strategies too. How to navigate in certain environments that can be violent towards our own identities. So, I really do see a form of sisterhood within these types of spaces.
FHK: Julie, you were talking about the racial burden, sorry. Can you explain to our listeners what the racial burden is.
JT: So, the racial burden is a concept brought up by Maboula Soumahoro, in her book « Le triangle et l’hexagone ». Then, in fact, she was inspired by the mental charge that was brought up by second wave feminists, as what often, as mothers, as women in heterosexual couples, takes a lot of weight in relation to the responsibilities of family life, then in fact she echoed the reality as a racialized person. In fact, we always need to be mentally prepared to these forms of racism and of discrimination that we can endure because of the racialization that society puts on us. So, for example, when you’re going to drive as a black person, in her case she’s a black woman, she explained that she always must make sure that she has her identity cards to be able to drive, for example. In the case of a racialized person in the academic field, well it is to prepare yourself for the forms of racism that can befall us. So, there is a lot of psychological preparation, and therefore a mental weight as a racialized person, face with the violence we know can happen. And so, there’s a kind of heaviness in this form of navigation within society, in our case, in collaborative research.
13:44
FHK: So, the fact to be in non-mixity takes a little bit of the weight and burden out of it.
JT: Exactly, yes.
FHK: I also wanted to ask you, when you took part in activities that were always in chosen non-mixity in between women, non-binary racialized people and black people. What did you leave with after taking part in these events, and what were the highlights for you at the different events you attended, if you want to start Michelle.
MM: So, I don’t know if I could sum it all up, because there really was so much going on…
FHK: You don’t have to summarize!
MM: *laughs* Uh...In terms of highlights…I’d say it was when I spoke up and shared my experience when I was working for an organization and what I’d been through, and Marie immediately said to me you’ve been through this this and this. And so, when I listed what I’d been through, I literally burst into tears, because I realized how much it affected my physical and mental health. I’d put it aside, I thought it was normal that this kind of thing happened to me, except that it wasn’t. The reality is that when you take factors into account, well, that’s the situation. Another thing, my goodness, we did some exercises to try and put our finger on our realities, on what’s wrong, to realize that well, you’re either in the collaborative or academic field, but you have this and this challenge to face. And it is also, how, this is what I also appreciated with Marie. She gave us tools to learn how to defend ourselves. I hadn’t had that before. And that’s why I think that when I came out of the forum, I felt much better armed, psychologically and mentally. Because I knew that if a situation came up, I’d know what to do. I’ll know how to respond, how to protect myself, because we don’t talk much about mental health when you’re also a racialized person. But when you have repeated violence like that, for the mind, there’s something. So that’s why I’ve given 2-3 examples like that, I could have gone on, there are things I’ve forgotten, but that’s all it took for me to really grow out of it. It changed me, it shook me up, but really on a positive level.
16:49
FHK: Yeah, and there was also a kind of validation of the experiences…
MM: Absolutely. Because, precisely, when you’re in that kind of situation, you tend to think: ‘’ I’m exaggerating’’, or ‘’I’m making it up’’, or ‘’No it’s not true’’, etc. And when we share our experiences and someone says ‘’ No but I’ve been through the exact same thing’’, I say to myself, ‘’Actually I’m not crazy’’. Right from the start, I’ve been saying that what I’m going through isn’t good, and I’ve been told that no, it is perfectly normal to end up in this situation, by finding yourself with people who are just like you. That really struck me, in fact.
ML: What I left with...First, I’d say, the book Survivre au Taf from Marie Da Sylva. I haven’t read it yet because I don’t necessarily know if I am ready, probably because I haven’t experienced much…Much discrimination or challenges in the workplace. I take preventive action, so I think that taking part in the activities has enabled me to see, to get a perspective on other workplaces, particularly the community and academic sectors, and how the feminist approach is one that was strongly advocated for by the participants. So, it’s an approach that I, personally, am not necessarily familiar with. I think I’m applying it unconsciously, but I left with these notions, new insights into perhaps the profile of racialized women in Montreal. The highlights were the moments when I was able to speak out, share my experience, and the listening I received. The listening of the participants, the connections I’ve made, Julie mentioned it earlier, like a sisterhood, so I feel like I am…That it was a strong moment, but that it is still going on, so there you go.
JT: For my part, to pick up on Mélissa’s comments, indeed, it also was informal, in terms of activities, we had good food. We were well fed, at the forum! *laughs*. And when we go to the PARR activities, we’re really pampered, so it feels good. And to be able to talk, yes, for example with Marie, because during the breaks we could talk with her and make links with people, for example, I already know faces in the feminist and antiracist milieu, that it’s just by name that we know each other, but we’ve never really spoken. And for example, when everyone gets together in these spaces, it’s precisely there that we can get to know each other better and see that, in the end, there are things we agree on in our ideological thinking, strategies we want to implement in our projects and just have fun, which is what Marie was able to put into her animation… So, for me, I left with greater lightness to face, on the one hand, returning in the academic world, knowing that I’m not alone in these experiences, and that I can look back and see people who will understand my experiences and share tools to navigate in these environments.
20:33
FHK: Has taking part in non-mixed activities during the PARR project also led you to think about implementing this practice of non-mixed activities in your workplace or in the academic environment in which you work, and what do you think would be applicable or desirable in the environments in which you work? If you want to go, Michelle.
MM: So, if I try to answer the question, I am trying to…to project myself into reality, it is true that it is very complicated in the academic field. Already, when working on issues of colonization and decolonization, especially when you come from a fairly conservative university, it makes thing harder. So, it is true that if I only stay in my university, it is going to be a problem. But I try to make the effort to go to other universities, where I know people who are in those institutions, to try and create my own network. So, I don’t have to depend solely on my faculty, because I know that they won’t do anything to change things. So as much as I decide to reach out to people who are like me, who work in the same fields, and from there I build my network. Whether it’s Ottawa, Concordia, or anything else, but I know that from then on, I’ll be doing that job. After, who knows, maybe things will change in my university. Who knows, when I’ll leave, things will evolve. But I already know that I can’t expect anything from my institution where I am now. Because no matter how much we say, no matter how much we prove ?? , there are problems. For example, there’s systemic racism that persists in universities, and it is clear who’s at the head of these institutions, people won’t understand. So, I might as well do something about it, I might as well make decision to break this pattern and find myself again, well, as I was saying, my network, and from there, we’ll see what happens next.
23 :09
FHK: So finally, not necessarily inside the institution, but outside...
MM: Absolutely.
FHK:...but it’s still with racialized people, black people…
MM: Yes, yes, yes. I know that if I come to speak about colonization and decolonization to non-racialized people, I don’t know if they’ll understand or if they’ll have the same reading as me, because I myself come from an environment where colonization is still ongoing, and I don’t know if they’ll understand what I’m saying by talking about my experience and so on. So it’s true that I shouldn’t…We say « yes », we say « you don’t have to be close-minded », I’d like to, but when it comes to questions like that, I have to look for people who understand exactly what I’m talking about. It’s important.
FHK: Yes, that we do not question it either…We were just talking about epistemic injustices in the first episode. It’s mentioned in the research led by Félicia Ça and Saaz Taher. To not question systematically the knowledge you bring back.
MM: Absolutely, absolutely. Because if I’m going to talk about my realities, or I’m talking about my thesis to someone who knows absolutely nothing about it and has a very narrow view of the subject, that’s going to be a problem. And we’ll end up in a situation where we censor ourselves to please the other person, etc., whereas reality is just as it is. And that’s why I say that I know that my university isn’t currently doing the work to recognizing certain situations. I take the decision, pack my little bags, and go see what’s going on elsewhere.
FHK: We didn’t mention it when we introduced you, but you also have a blog, Identité Caraïbes, is that part of your strategy?
25:03
MM: Yes, yes. Because, for the record, I used to write articles for a research center which is still à UdeM, except that I was told for X reasons, that they didn’t understand what I was talking about, etc. etc. So basically, to drop the article, if you are another subject, come, but now it’s not possible. On top of that, I noticed that there was no research center for Caribbean studies in my faculty. I found that really shocking, because I’m thinking, when we consider that there’s a strong Caribbean community, how come we have research chairs about the United States, Africa, Asia, etc., Where is the Caribbean? And above all, I didn’t see any website, here based in Quebec, that would give me even a basic understanding of what is happening in the French West Indies, for example. To break down this exotic vision, to make people understand that there are realities at play in these territories. And it was after a lot of thought etc., that my friends told me Michelle, you’ve got to start your own blog. You can’t wait on the goodwill of these people so that you can come and publish an article, or even on the regional or national press, so they can accept your paper. You must do the work, even if it means a financial sacrifice, because you must pay for the hosting site, etc., and so on, but you know it’s your writing, we’re not going to question precisely what you write about. And that is why in 2020, we’re in the middle of the pandemic, with all the events with George Floyd etc., all that, it motivated me to say well let’s go, we launch Identité Caraïbes. And since then, it’s been three years, and I haven’t regretted creating my website at all.
FHK: Congratulations.
MM: Thank you. *laughs*
FHK: Mélissa, do you think that the experience, this non-mixity, would be desirable or applicable in your workplace, or even at the university where you’re at?
ML: Well... This is where my opinion might differ. Hmm... I think it depends on the project. It depends on the investment. It also depends on the objectives pursued. Personally, the racial or mental burden, that is associated to non-mixity, or mixity, is to be taken into consideration. However, by the nature of my university program, which meant that not only there was a mix in term of racial identities, but also it terms of professional identities, which meant that for me, non-mixity is more or less the norm, and that’s what’s desirable. It’s more a question of how to deal with this non-mixity, and then there’s another aspect that Michelle brought up that I think is very important, and that’s the vision. So, what is the vision of the people who make the group, how do they wish to contribute to this mission, and how, in fact, are the means identified enable us to work together. So, I think that there are other contexts where it’s unfavorable in fact. Or we don’t value diversity, and the result may not be as good as if we had decided to make it mixed. So…that is my position, maybe at the academic level. However, I also agree with the idea of teaming up with students from other universities. For example, in the United States, I enjoy making links, because they have a vision that is a little bit more…maybe not pragmatic, but a little bit more immediate, so creating links, creating your own network, I agree. But to say that we always have to be non-mixed, no.
29:49
FHK: No indeed, because as I mentioned it in the definition at the start of the podcast, it is more a tool than an end. Do you see it as a tool at certain times to create solidarities or talk about certain situations of discrimination?
ML: Absolutely, it’s just that I don’t want it to turn into a struggle. And depending on the objective, again, it can take the form of recommendations, but it doesn’t have to be demands either. So, the nature of the group will determine its raison d’être, in my opinion. So yes, it’s a tool, it can be used at times, but it shouldn’t become its essence either.
JT: In fact, what Mélissa and Michelle bring to the conversation is, I see that non-mixed spaces are also political spaces. You have to see it. In fact, what the finality is, there’s a common goal in this type of space, because indeed, we mustn’t forget that as a racialized people, we have divergent and different postures, and it’s not necessarily because we are part of the same community that we’re automatically for the same cause and that it’s going to go well in the workplace and…We must not fall into this form of collective imagination either.. *inaudible* Exactly, and it may in fact, unfortunately, be disappointing for some of us to imagine, for example, this form of collectivity, with these non-mixed spaces, so I think that it could indeed be relevant if there’s a pressing need, for example, in the academic field, it could be extremely relevant in fact, for students coming together, to share similar experiences, because when we talk about systemic racism, it’s also at the university. So automatically, I think that it could be something relevant. However, you have to have the resources. And often, that’s what’s really lacking when it comes to setting up these forms of spaces in institutional settings, is that there are very few resources available…And so, often, it often falls on the people who are going to take up the cause of setting non-mixed spaces, and this is where the mental burden can fall on the individual or a small group of individuals. So, for me, it’s certainly relevant, and even desirable, but we need to set up guidelines around the resources and also make sure that the people around the table who decide to go in these spaces agree with the notion of a safer space, because we’re not necessarily aiming to create a space of courage in these moments, because that’s not the goal. So, I think that it’s also about putting forward vulnerability on our part, and that not everyone is ready when they arrive in these types of spaces. So, for me, a bit like Mélissa, it’s ambivalent, the why, the how…
33:16
FHK: The objectives too...
JT: Exactly. We mustn’t forget that it’s political.
FHK: Yeah.
JT: And if you take the politics out of this type of space, you are depoliticizing the very creation of antiracists movements for example, which were really created « by and for », racialized people, so for me, you have to keep that in mind. So beyond just being people who experience racism when we get together, we have a common goal. In a certain sense, we have an emancipatory goal in this type of space.
FHK: Thank you, Julie, what you’re saying is very interesting. Precisely, there is the notion of a non-mixed space chosen at opportune moments with precise objectives. The PARR project was a bit like that too. You took part in several activities, the aim of which was precisely to create a political space, for emancipation and the sharing of experiences. Quite a few tools were also developed at that time. Are there things that you now carry with you after participating in these spaces that you continue to try to apply, or not yet. You said that you hadn’t yet read Marie Da Sylva’s book, or that you’re in the process of prevention, but at least the things that have been asked, can you talk about them or tell me like what are these tools that you keep with you after participating in these activities.
34:38
MM: For my part, it’s true that the forum that I took part in really gave me self-defense tools that I didn’t have. And strangely enough, I was in another situation sometime later where it was almost vital that I had these tools in my possession, since they enabled me to protect myself, but also to assert my rights and my voice. And it’s true that when I started taking part in these activities, my self-confidence wasn’t there. And since then, having taken part in these activities, I’m no longer afraid to say things. It is true that once again, we find ourselves in non-mixed or mixed environments, where our voice is often sidelined. So, we must find weapons to make ourselves heard. It’s still complicated, but I’m no longer afraid of saying to myself, ‘’Okay, you said that you’ve asserted your rights, you make it clear to such and such a person that you don’t agree on such and such a point, that they’re reacting in such and such a way, it’s no longer your problem’’. Because we also tend to condition ourselves, to censor ourselves to please the other person. And so, I’ve reached a stage where I no longer want to please the other person. I must think about myself a bit first, because my physical and mental health are taking a hit in this business. And what’s more, it’s a way for me to reaffirm my values, what I stand for, because writing the thesis I’m writing, I know it’s a sensitive topic in Guadeloupe. And talking about colonization, decolonization, identity, race, etc., is still a taboo subject. But I’m taking the risk, and that’s precisely what I’m doing, by taking part in these projects, I’m taking the risk to taking an interest in these subjects. And it allows me not only from an academic point of view to deepen my research, and therefore with the tools I’ve been given, to see how I’m going to behave regardless of the situation. That’s not to say I’m closed-minded, eh, not at all, but I’m obliged to protect myself so that, as I said, my mental and physical health won’t suffer in the long term.
FHK: For you Mélissa, it’s… What tool do you keep with you?
ML: I could say...I don’t necessarily know if they are tools, but rather… I will categorize them as a philosophy, in the sense that it’s important to take part in discussion forums, to dialogue with people who are like us, but also not necessarily, just to focus on this aspect of my identity…So, I’m black *laughs*, I think, in the sense that I don’t have the same skin color as the majority here in Quebec. However, if I go in Africa, that’s something else. So really, to contextualize the way I present myself, in which places I present myself, to make the choice to mention certain aspects of my identity, be it professional, personal, social, etc…The affiliations I can have also, so really, I think that the tool is like presenting myself in certain situations, so it can play in my favor, without necessarily forgetting my nature, my values and my posture. So that’s first. Second, I could say…Letting go. So, I really feel that well, I have a vision that we all experience discriminations, and it’s not about minimizing the racial aspect, it’s more about telling ourselves that it’s not always going to take over. Then invisibilize other causes. So... there’s the intersectional aspect, and then there’s the visible and invisible aspect. So, it just allowed me to deepen my reflections on these issues, on the I’m presenting myself.
39:51
FHK: Thank you. Julie?
JT: It reminds me a bit of the technique, I think it’s 5 minutes of racism, which Marie Da Sylva mentions, because if we had to stop every time, we experienced racism, we wouldn’t survive every day. So, we kind of picked our fights of…Is it really, it’s important. Yes, it’s important, but when you weigh up the pros and cons…So someone made a comment about my hair, well fine, we move on. So for me, it was in one the cohorts, we talked about the importance to document our experiences, and that’s what I did, and I had to use it a few months later, precisely because I felt there were things going on in that particular workplace, also sometimes intellectual appropriation, these are things we talked about, and really document what day, what date, have e-mail traces as a proof, that’s something that could be often overlooked, because it’s not necessarily automatic in our practice, but for me, I really understood that it’s important to document all that when it happens. So, for example, when you feel that there’s going to be forms of micro-management,??, communications misunderstandings at the beginning, but unfortunately, they can become bigger. So, for me, in fact, it was strategies that today I can sleep, because I know I’m not at fault in fact, and that I was able to prove that I was not at fault in that situation. So, for me, being in this type of non-mixed spaces, with people who have experienced similar cases, has enabled me to ok, I understand better when they say to document, what does that mean, and to leave traces. For example, Mélissa, you said it was important to write a summary after an e-mail…
41:53
ML: All the meetings!
JT: All the meetings, well you know, for example, strategic little sentences that we’re told, for example, thank you for taking the time to have this discussion, so if I summarize, tatatata, then you put form dots, that leaves a written trace let’s say. It takes time and energy, but it’s important because you know what the costs are in the future, it can happen, so for me it’s also a form of strategy that I’ve learned from being in the group, because there are people who use it every day.
FHK: It was also important to get together with non-mixed people to communication these kinds of strategies, because there’s also the communication of experiences but also of…This is how I manage in my workplace, you could apply that in your workplace too, so it’s also a sharing of knowledge between everyone.
MM: Yeah.
JT: And also, your type of personality, there are people that are less comfortable to address things, and other people that are less...And so sometimes we give ourselves other different kinds of angles, on how to address other situations. Do you want to address the situation in a more frontal way, or maybe ok, maybe less, and it’s okay because maybe some will say ok, I understand what you’re saying, but I am not comfortable doing that.
FHK: It’s other strategies, depending on what the person can do...
JT: Exactly.
FHK: Well, thank you very much.
MM: Thank you.
FHK: Thank you to the three of you for taking part in this podcast and for sharing your experiences, really, during the PARR project activities. Thank you for being here too, for this wonderful exchange. Thank you to our listeners for listening to this podcast. We’d also like to thank all the collaborators of the project, especially you, without whom this podcast would not have been possible. At every stage of our activities, you’ve done a remarkable job of supporting and bringing your experiences and expertise to a significant number of Black, Indigenous and racialized women and non-binary people. So, thank you very much again and I wish you all the best. And as for us, see you in a future episode, very soon.
*music*
THE END.
