00:00
Fella Hadj Kaddour (FHK): Hello everyone and welcome to our podcast, « En fleurs, plus en feu ». My name is Fella Hadj Kaddour and I will be your host for today’s episode. « En fleurs, plus en feu» is a podcast that aims to put forward the work of the project « Promotion des Actrices racisées en recherche partenariale au Québec », the PARR project. And now, today’s episode.
*music*
00:44
FHK: Before starting today’s episode, I want to recognize that we are reuniting today on the land of the Kanien:keha’ka nation, unceded land of Tiohtià:ke, here on Turtle Island. We would like to express all our solidarity with the Indigenous communities that are fighting for self-determination. We honor the traditional guardians of this territory.
And so today we meet again for our third episode, where we’ll be tacking the question of solidarities between black and racialized communities, and common strategies of resistance about lived injustices in collaborative research in Quebec. To do so, we’ll welcome participants who took part in the cohort days in September 2023, and that kindly accepted our invitation. So, first with us, Samia Dumais. Samia you are a PhD student in history at Concordia University. Samia, you work on Afro-Canadian history in the second half of the 20th century, and you are focusing on contemporary experiences of afrodescendant and immigrant populations within Quebec and Canadian school structures. Samia is also a member of the editorial committee of HistoireEngagée.ca magazine, she also worked for a variety of research projects in Quebec and in Ontario. Samia is currently coordinating the Project « Santé gynécologique et obstétrique des femmes noires : leurs expériences dans le système de santé québécois », Samia is also the archivist for the Black feminist collective Harambec. Thank you Samia for being with us.
We also have with us Aurélie Milord. So Aurélie, PhD student in sexology at Université du Québec de Montréal, your doctoral research focuses on the obstetrical and gynecological experiences of people from the Haitian community in Montreal’s healthcare system. Aurélie, born from Haitian parents in Montreal, you consider yourself as an Afro-Canadian and a militant for the reproductive rights of people from the Black community in Quebec. Hi Aurélie, thank you for accepting our invitation.
02:49
Aurélie Milord (AM): It’s a pleasure.
FHK: Also with us, to finish, Samantha Lopez Uri. She is an anti-racist consultant and had the opportunity to lead and train youth and social workers in various settings over the past few years. Samantha is currently conducting, as part of her master’s degree in social Innovation at Université St-Paul, research about the perspectives of racialized people on issues of racism and systemic discrimination in Quebec community-based environments. Your commitments have also led you to act as facilitator, coordinator, research assistant and advisor on various issues related to youth, diversity and inclusion. Of Quechua Bolivian origins, you are born in Tiohtià:ke, Montreal, you firmly think that collective healing is key to reappropriate our spaces and our stories, thank you Samantha, thank you very much for being here.
Samantha Lopez Uri (SLU): Thanks to you.
FHK: So, I’m going to come back to the cohort activity, for a bit, a little reminder for our auditors, during the first episode where we mentioned the community-based activities of the PARR project, notably those of the forum, where a conference moderated by Marie Da Sylva took place, as well as a series of workshops about issues of invisibilization and discrimination lived by women and non-binary black and racialized people in collaborative research. So, the PARR team wanted to create a cohort in order to delve deeper into some of the issues raised during the forum, and in, also, dig these axes that were mentioned in the research led by Félicia Ça and Saaz Taher. The aim was to address the issues of tokenization, of protection of our networks, work and knowledge, and the financial sustainability of research projects, in a logic of co-creation of strategies, solidarities, and resistance. So, my first question would really be to ask you what finally motivated you to take part in the cohort days.
AM: If I can start, what really motivated me personally to take part in this type of activity, it was really my need of a community, of a collectivity…I’m one of the only Black people, to my knowledge, in my doctoral program, so I find it a bit isolating, and when I saw the activities organized by the PARR project, I was like « Yes! Finally! », so that’s why I decided to participate.
Samia Dumais (SD): Uh....Yeah for my part, a bit like Aurélie, also the need for community and collectivity, but also the need to find ourselves in spaces where we can actually be vulnerable with each other. I find that in fact, especially in the academic field in which I mostly evolve, vulnerability, emotions, sharing experiences, it’s rarely something that is put forward. So, to gather, discuss with people who have either similar or different experiences but ultimately, yeah, still collective, it was really… It felt really good.
05:47
SLU: A bit like you two, you mentioned it, I think it really is the need to… Finally to be in a space in which we can…Be yourself, a little. I mean in the community sector, in the research sector, you always have to… I’m one of the only racialized people in those fields, so there’s always a heaviness of like, navigating in there… So finally finding people who look like me, people with whom I can share my experiences, for me it’s key and I think…Yeah, I think that’s going to be it.
FHK: And during...During the cohort days, can you tell us about your experiences in the workshops, and what were the highlights for you?
SD: I can start, in fact, I was present at the activity on…the day on intellectual property, where in fact, in addition to exchanging with each other, we had workshops to like, imagine our dream intellectual property agreement, or how we’re going to…We were able to gather, to navigate, for example, some of the barriers encountered in the academic world when it comes to protecting our intellectual property. As much as it was confronting, because it’s never easy to talk about issues we’re…we’re facing in our path, as much as it was refreshing to tackle them without taboo, to be able to materialize a little bit what respect for our intellectual property actually means when it’s not something that it’s necessary done in the academic field, so me personally I found it very very stimulating and very caring, the animation was really great, so yeah, it was good.
AM: Yeah the animation was really top. We were talking a bit about it earlier, but the animation, I think for the three of us, was one of the strong moments of the day. Me, how I lived the workshops, I thought that…I was so happy to have a sharing space, where we really learned, like Samia said. I too only took part in the day on tokenization and intellectual property, and I feel like I came out of it with plenty of ideas and strategies, so yeah, I really enjoyed it too.
08:12
SLU: On my part...It’s clear that having a facilitator like we had, really made us feel at ease, she was a really good listener, caring, and was able to understand our limits. And I think that sometimes, we forget these limits, to set them, and I think we were really getting into the spirit of learning what exactly intellectual property was. In my case, in the community sector, there really isn’t any. You work for an organization, so I understood that everything I said, what I was giving as information, what I was sharing, was on behalf of the organization, and for me it was a big click to say ‘’wow, ok’’. The research field, I have the chance, the privilege, of having a supervisor that understands this aspect, that is capable of saying that ‘’this belongs to you, so we’ll make sure that it’s under your name’’, but unfortunately, it’s not the case in the community sector. So I learned a lot, I think that it’s a practical exercise that enabled us to understand how each of us navigate through this very issue, that is so important because we are so rich, and you are all very inspiring women with big baggage, very rich experiences, so I think that it’s important to understand what are those tactics, these strategies that can be put into place, and I’m learning from each and every one of you about strategies I hadn’t thought of before. I think that sometimes we have strategies and we don’t even realize it, I think it helps to name them, to express them, to share them, and to see how we can help each other through these strategies of…on intellectual property.
10:07
AM: I really agree with what you were saying, especially about on the concept of mutual aid, I have the impression that, as the day went by, we were really creating a community, and like, there was a sense of care, we took care of each other by exchanging, by sharing strategies and by trusting that we had the space to do so, so this too I name it, it was really a strong moment, the activity on co-construction, really.
FHK: Can you just come back to the question of intellectual property. What does it mean, finally, just to explain to our audience, what’s at stake, why is it important as a researcher in academia or in the community sector?
SD: I can speak from experience, once again, which is mainly in the academic sector. Intellectual property is the fruit of my labor that belongs to me, my name on the work, but also to recognize in fact, not necessarily the final product, but all the steps that led to my name on that work. So like, for my master thesis for example, the stakes are lower in my opinion, simply because I have traces of my work, it’s in my computer, it’s on my Google Drive, my name is there at the end. But perhaps for research projects that have been carried out with teachers, even in collaborative research…It’s delicate because as students we get caught up in dynamics with teachers that really have, in fact, a reputation, and they have the institution which in fact validates their work, which protects the work, which funds the work. Then there’s the question of deliverables, I think too, in intellectual property that is very important because once the project is done, anyone who has access to it can put their name on it and say it’s my work and, because after that, the project or the deliverable belongs to the research them, it’s a little bit more difficult to identify the role played by the various parties, and ultimately, what’s going to happen is that…I was lucky, in a lot of my experiences, the teachers always recognized the work that I realized as a student, but I know that it’s not a reality that is, unfortunately, universal, and it can happen that a teacher, well, quite simply, appropriates a student’s work, even if ultimately, the student will have written the entire work, the teacher will just…bah, say it in a conference and says it belongs to them. And it’s a serious matter because in the academic world, we’re actually recognized on the basis of our ability to produce, and our capacity to produce knowledge that belongs to us, so after that there are these blind spots like that, which pose pretty big risks for our chances of actually finding a job, or just our chances of actually being recognized in our field…So there are also issues in community research partnerships, but I’d rather let my colleagues talk about that. *laughs*
13:09
AM: I also think that in the academic sector, in fact, the frontiers are blurry, for example about intellectual property, this means that you’re working for, say, a professor, a research chair or a collective, but your work will become invisible to the group, so for the exchanges, and whether as an academic or as a partner who also participates in the exchanges and greatly enriches the research work that will be produced, the delimitation…There’s like, an unspoken or invisible agreement that you take for granted without knowing, that what you produce, share and create is going to be put into a group context, so ultimately, invisibilized. You lose a little of your individuality, and as Samia says, the effect of producing knowledge for and by yourself.
SLU: Yeah. In the community sector, to bounce back on what you just mentioned, I don’t find that aspect, precisely, of recognizing the individuality of the person. It’s really, it’s back to the organization. That’s what I really found out later, after doing lots of research, whether in the youth or immigration sector, that’s what I contribute to the end, is never in my name. Like I know that right now, I have several research projects that I’ve contributed to, there’s maybe one out of five that my name is on it, but it’s because my colleague pushed for it. And me I didn’t realize how important it is, and she’s like : no, no, it’s important, you did it, we did it together, it’s going to have your name on it. And I think that it’s concerning, because right now, there’s no clause which allows community organizations, or at least the people who work in them, to protect themselves. I mean, after, can I use this research project and say it’s from me, even if my name is not on it? Like…It’s like something unspoken in the community sector, and now I’m trying to put things in place to make sure that it’s Samantha Lopez Uri that contributed to the document. In my practice as an independent worker, I do it now, but before, I didn’t realize that it was that important, and that people, especially when we talk about antiracism, decolonization, there are a lot of people who will easily make it their own, because it's…The most legitimate people are the first to be censored, so I think that right now it is very important to do it, and in the academic sector, like I mentioned, I am very privileged to have a research supervisor that understands that this work is done by me and by her, so there’s validation to that, but is it the entire faculty, is it the university itself ? I don’t think so. I mean, I hear stories of people just having their ideas stolen, because it is not written down, they name it orally, and the teacher decides to take it because it suits them. Or even teachers, I don’t know if it ever happened to you, but teachers who do sessions, classes, in which they’ll be enriched by discussions and work to improve their own work, and then I’m like no. Put my name next to your work at worst, but…There’s all that I think in the academic field, it remains a colonial structure of course but.. There are still things that are so entrenched that we still must fight for our legitimacy, for our voice, for the voices of people we’re working for. In my case, it’s collaborative research that involves youth or racialized immigrant people, so I need to fight not only for me, but for them too. Because they are also instrumentalized. So all of that needs to be taken into consideration, and I also think that it is even more complex to see how we can protect ourselves. And I think that the discussions we have, but also the space we had, enabledp us to say, okay, we are not alone, ok we will need to find people, to be well surrounded in the end.
17:33
FHK: Well, you were talking about the question of intellectual property, but did you come away from these workshops/cohorts with strategies or anything else, precisely, that you mentioned during the workshops, that you didn’t think of before accessing these workshops, specifically.
AM: Well, it’s stupid to say, but I think that I never thought in the first place. So, I didn’t think about the first limits that need to be put in place, before even starting or conceptualizing a project, I didn’t think to put clear limits. So whether it’s creating a contract, or a written agreement, whether it’s actually in writing so..I feel that because of my participation to the cohort activities, I understood the most simple things that I could put in place, but that I didn’t think that, as a student or as a research assistant, I necessarily had the right to implement ? I really left with all the basic knowledge to make sure that in the future, and even from now on, all the elements that are proper to my intellectual property belong to me.
SD: On my part, I would say...One of the biggest things I’ve learned through my participation in the PARR project is that my knowledge is valid. And my knowledge is valid, my knowledge was valid when I was an undergraduate student, when I was doing my master’s degree, and still today when I’m starting my doctoral degree. And I think that it is very easy when we’re in positions, yeah, when we work in research projects where there’s a form of hierarchization, when we are being reminded that we are only students. What we must put on the table is not necessarily…It’s not, it’s not… It’s not like a breakthrough, you know. It’s still very very very much on the surface, and that’s precisely, I also think that there’s a kind of devaluation of knowledge that happens in these spaces, which means that afterwards we’re not inclined to fight to protect ourselves because we’re constantly told that we’re just students, that we’re at the beginning of our career, that what we do isn’t that important, in fact. And on my side, especially in history,it was very difficult because it’s a very colonial discipline, knowledges are very colonial, and having done my entire education in Quebec, there weren’t many black or racialized people in history, and to exchange with the participants of the PARR project and to realize that my interests in history are valid, and it is not by… and that’s precisely, the absence of my interests in dominant narratives is a direct product of colonialism and white supremacy that are still in academic institutions, well it really gave me the wind in my sails to say ok, what I’m doing is important, it’s important for a variety of reasons, but it’s also very important for all the people that are going to come after me in the system. It’s surely a very big weight to put on one’s shoulders, but we all break the glass ceiling in our own way I think…Yeah, when I was talking a bit earlier about vulnerability in these very spaces, I don’t think I would have had these thoughts, for example, if I’d been surrounded only by white people, who don’t necessarily understand how violent a process it can be to constantly be denied the knowledge that I actually carry and which is somewhat different from the knowledges of my other colleagues. So really, the PARR project, I think that’s what it did for me the most…yeah.
SLU: I think that it’s similar for me. For my part, in the community sector, sometimes, I always have to fight. Not sometimes, all the time, I have to fight to value the different forms of knowledges, especially when we work with people, concerned people, so the youth, racialized immigrant people, it is to show that yes we want to do a research project to put these voices forward, but often, it’s instrumentalized. And I’m always on the forefront of telling myself and others to be careful about how we do our project, our methodology, the interviews, so there’s all these thoughts that sometimes, it’s exhausting, and to have a space like the PARR project, it made me realize that I’m not alone in trying to destabilize the status quo, to break down this great wall, which is always there in front of us because of systems that are very oppressive so…I think, to get out of that bubble, to find people who don’t necessarily have the same experiences but who nevertheless experience oppression linked precisely to systemic barriers, so there’s that. And the fact that also, as you said, to feel validated, sometimes our mind is spinning and we think that we’re not…That we’re not doing the right things, maybe we don’t have enough experiences or I don’t know, but I think that it helps to remember that ok, what I’m doing is valid, and I think that…Sometimes, there’s people around the table and I’m like, how can this person doubt themselves, I hear talking and I’m like, but no! So, I think that we are all in that cycle where we often question ourselves, and remember that we’re powerful, that we’re intelligent and that we’re here to stay, and I think that’s what scares institutions. And Marie Da Sylva named it, we scare these institutions so much that they always put barriers on. So, I think that we have to keep on working like this to keep on destabilizing, and then, to have these spaces to just like… let our guards down. We’re always in protection mode, and I think that it’s at times like these that we can breathe and remain ourselves.
23:25
AM: I really agree with what you just said Samantha. Especially in terms of looking at the people around the table and wondering how in fact this person can doubt the validity of what they’re saying, their knowledge, what they’re producing. And then, when I left the cohort day, I said to myself, but ‘’My God, I’m so angry that, everyone around the table went through so many oppressions, so many different experiences, but which are similar too’’, in the context where we’ve felt that there were perhaps brakes or barriers. Then, in parallel, there’s also the enriching aspect of taking part in these days of…Being with peers and being able to exchange and learn, I’ve learned so much. I remember at the end of the day, I looked around the table and I was like, I can’t think anymore actually. You burned me, I gave all I had to give of my brain, but I’m so grateful. And it continued to spin in my head for weeks afterwards, I’d say that…last week, I saw a post on Instagram, and I was like ‘’Ah! I could have used that during the day, two months earlier’’ so I thought it was really really enriching.
FHK: Thank you, thank you for sharing these experiences. I also wanted to ask you, you left with all these strategies, these ideas, did you, in the meantime, since you took part to the cohort days, have you been able to implement and put into practice these strategies, if you feel comfortable sharing certain things. Have you had the time to put them into practice?
SD: Put in practice, not necessarily concretely, but it’s clear that my thoughts are much more…I’d say I’m much more on my guard and much more vigilant, because, in fact, it makes me realize that in the past, there have been times when my knowledge has been instrumentalized. I kind of felt that it could have happened in the months that followed the project, on two different occasions, but it was like, actually natural for me to more quickly set my boundaries and say, okay no, if we’re going to do such and such, I want to make sure that such and such and such. And it was well received, in fact. So I think that… There’s a sort of self-preservation side to it, which has really taken over, which maybe was there before but more timidly , but after actually hearing everyone and after hearing how it’s important to protect my work, now it comes more naturally, definitely.
SLU: I think that one of the strategies we had…Well thinking about an agreement or a protocol on intellectual property, well that allowed me to say, yes, I have to do one. I mean, I’m self-employed part-time, I don’t even have that clause in my agreements, so I think that’s another thing that….I think I’m going to have to…I’m thinking on how and at…the next contract I put in my place, to make sure that I have this clause because it’s easy, as a self-employed worker, to have my knowledge used in any way. And I think that in the community sector I’d already acquired certain strategies, a few years ago, to precisely make my contras before…For example, in the community sector, we get…We get contacted for research projects, so I make sure that every time I’m involved in a research project, I make sure that the people, especially the youth or the people with whom I’m working have a clause for them, have a signed agreements that I’ll validate with them, because it’s often the researcher who sends the agreement and then the person doesn’t really understand because it’s a contract and sometimes it’s their first time seeing a contract. So I make sure I sit down with them look at it with them, so I apply certain strategies, but I’m just like you, like I also look to see…I’m hyper vigilant now, and I’m really careful when someone tells me: ah, I want you to take part in a panel, I want you to take part in a training session, like could you help us. I’m really trying to go step by step because it’s all too easy to say yes, to get on board quickly, and then forget that your knowledge is at stake, so for me it was very very important during the day to apply it and to put it into action in my work.
AM: I haven’t really had the chance to put it into practice either, but I’ve given a lot of thought to all the aspects, all the strategies that we came up with as a group, and then in fact, what came out of it, and the principal strategy that I think I’m going to put into place is to convince myself and to believe in it that I have the right to be protected in an academic research partnership agreement. So, I have the right to put my foot down, to have some guidelines in relation to my intellectual property and to decide what I accept and what I don’t accept in relation to the reuse or the production of knowledge that I bring to a team, so that’s it. So, it’s really more on a reflective level for me, but I feel like it’s moving towards that in fact. Really towards strategies that are going to be put in place, so as you say, whether it's a contract or anything else that might be useful, in fact.
29:04
FHK: Thank you for sharing these experiences. Also, we wanted to ask you, in this podcast, we talked about solidarity strategies, resistance practices. What differences do you see between these two words, so solidarities practices, resistance practices, particularly in the context of support in between racialized communities. Do you favor one expression over the other? So how do you define each one of them, and do you use one more rather than the other, sorry.
AM: I’m a firm believer in solidarity. I think it’s useful, that it’s relevant to communities, but in my opinion, there’s really a hyper positive side to this concept, to solidarity, which is meant to be caring, but that is not really caring in its entirety, which invisibilize, that doesn’t necessarily take into account certain blind spots, so I… I know that out of convenience, to look good, to put on white gloves, I’ve often used the concept of solidarity, and more and more I’m tending towards resistance. And in fact, I think it’s important to recognize the concept of resistance, especially in a contest where we experience so much oppression in other spheres/environments, and I also believe that in resistance, there’s solidarity. So I think that it encompasses what it could represent, and that I better represents the fact that we’re resisting something, a force that is oppressing us.
SD: Yes, to bounce back, I totally agree with what you said, Aurélie. And I also believe that resistance practices are perhaps more appropriate, insofar as when we’re together, yes we get together, we discuss it, but ultimately, we all come from different backgrounds, we are not necessarily in the same schools, in the same departments so, on my side, when after that I go back to my daily life, well it’s me against the world in a way…So solidarity, when we’re maybe a bit more in between ourselves, but definitely it’s resistance all the time and only resistance, yeah.
AM: That’s a very good point. Solidarity between us, but outside what unites us, it’s resistance, absolutely.
SLU: Yeah well it’s the same. I’ve always said strategies, resistance practices, especially in, when you’re navigating, like you mentioned, in oppressive environments, solidarity I find is a term I’m going to have more when I’m in a healing space. Because that’s when we can let go, that’s when you can really stop resisting all the time. Because resistance becomes intense, it becomes heavy, it becomes draining, so I think that I envision solidarity more in, when we’re really trying to think of a future, a future in which, and this is the dream, we can think about a future in which there are no longer these oppressive spaces. And I think that these are things that we need to think about too. Because when we’re in resistance all the time, we get super tired, and I know that at the end of the day of the workshop, I was tired, but I felt very good. So yeah, we were really presenting our actions of resistance, but solidarity came when we saw that the other person needed to discuss about something, they needed to share their emotions, so I think there’s a mix of those two, but on a daily basis, as you said it sometimes, I’m also facing, you know, me versus the world so…Whether we like it or not, even if we think our environments are less oppressive, we’re always in resistance mode, even when I arrived here I was in a bit of a resistance mode of, am I going to have to be careful about what I say, how I name things, how I protect myself, so whether you like it or not, we’re always in that mode, then solidarity comes when we want to really move forward and then together so…I think that it would be, yeah, it would be both, but with more of a focus on resistance strategies.
33:27
FHK: We were talking about the notions of solidarity and resistance, I also wanted to know, during the cohort workshops, how did you experience the fact of co-constructing these strategies together, and were you made aware of strategies and experiences that you hadn’t previously known about, before taking part in the cohort workshops?
SD: It’s been challenging at times I’d say, because even though we share common experiences, we all come with our own individual baggage. So, for example, on my side, while I have experiences in the community sector and in collaborative research, my background is mainly academic. And even if I’m involved or have the impression that I’m involved in processes or studies or even in perspectives that go a little against the grain, it doesn’t change the fact that I’m in the institution, I benefit from the institution, I profit from it and I contribute to keeping this machine running. And the PARR project and the cohort were also a good opportunity for me and for us to have a reality check in the face of the positions of privilege in which we find ourselves, just because we’re PhD students, we’re at university, not everyone has access to these spaces and not everyone can benefit from them, in the same way that I or others around me do. So that is clearly confronting, but at the same thing, it’s also so necessary in our co-constructing spaces that we hold ourselves accountable in fact for the potential behaviors we may reproduce because we’re a bit caught up in this machine. So, it’s clear that, I think that in spite of us, in spite of me, there might be some… I might have perpetuated let’s say, certain… What would be the right word, certain…Well I don’t mean certain behaviors, but certain practices. Certain practices that don’t necessarily take into account the reality of some people that are not evolving in the same environments as me. But I remember, there were certain interventions that were made by people that were reality checks, but made with so much care at the same time, to say ‘’Well yes Samia I understand what you mean here, or I understand the idea that you have, but here’s maybe a perspective that you hadn’t seen’’, it’s very rare in fact, to have people who are ready to… Yeah, to set you straight a bit, but with so much care, I think that’s also what makes the beauty of the cohort, is that we really approach these spaces with care, and not with, I don’t know, a feeling of competition or…yeah. Yeah.
36:03
AM: I totally agree, especially at the level of, you, we hear other people experiences, other people are going to share things with us that we didn’t experience because we have totally different experiences, and then, to say to ourselves, there’s so much care in what is happening right now that even if get put back in my place, or if someone challenges the ideas I share, I don’t feel oppressed. It’s done in a way of co-constructing knowledge, in a perspective of really wanting to develop our critical thinking, but also to improve in what we want to become, in what we’re trying to do, in who we are in these spaces, and also to pay attention to others in these spaces. So it’s really this whole question of care, but also taking care of…and I can find other synonyms of benevolence, *laughs*, so there you go, so that’s really been, I find, extremely beneficial, yeah.
SLU: It’s that it allows us to…like, to question our posture a little, to say to ourselves, I know that I came here with different hats, and that everyone comes here with different hats, different backgrounds, different experiences, so for me it’s always been important to take a step back. To tell myself that I’ve got to do something, that we already have to be careful in how we express ourselves in the institutions, but here I find it easier to be careful because we’ve created these environments in which we can afford to say ‘’ hey, finally, Sam what you said isn’t right’’ or whatever, precisely because we’re always careful about what we say, what we do, our actions, that here I think we created a favorable environment to take care of ourselves. I think they’re all experiences that have been named for me, who…The fact that it’s a non-mixed space allows me to understand certain experiences and strategies that I never thought about because of my identity, because of certain things, so I think for me, it’s already an immense privilege that people have shared these experiences, and then to say to myself, woah okay, maybe I didn’t experience that, but I hadn’t thought about using this very form of strategy to protect myself. So, I think it’s a double privilege to have a space to get to know each other and share, but also to make yourself vulnerable to others, knowing that it's information that we would not say to other people. So, for me there’s like a dose of vigilance to be had when we arrive in these spaces, and I think we’ve created, I feel very at ease with you naming certain things, even if it’s hard to like, break this shell which for a long time was well protected and isolated. So, I think it’s been a huge learning curve in terms of, no matter what posture you’re in, I think it is important to remember what we come in with and what we bring to the table so you don’t reproduce an oppressive environment. It’s still difficult, I mean, there’s no perfect environment, but I think that we’ve set ourselves guidelines to make sure that we can feel safe and feel vulnerable as we want.
AM: And I also think that the vulnerability of the people around the table during the PARR project day in fact, for me personally, gave me strategies to really say to myself, ok well because of this experience, because of the sharing that the other person did, I have to be more vigilant so this kind of experience doesn’t happen to me, but also as a protection system, if I see that it’s happening to someone else, or I don’t know. To be more present, more alert in fact to these realities, which I may or may not be able to experience because well, precisely, we all come from different backgrounds and experiences, so yeah.
FHK: You’ve been made aware of experiences that you don’t necessarily know about, do you have any examples, or would you feel comfortable sharing examples that you’ve had reality checks on?
SLU: Well in my case, I arrived with my posture from the community sector, so I didn’t put as much emphasis on the academic aspect, even though I’m still navigating in that area. And I think it helped me deconstruct certain ideas I had about the academic world. You know the academic world, the university, it’s a big machine for me, and I think that there are experiences that I couldn’t live because I’m not totally anchored in the academic world, which also allows me to see that it's very similar in the community sector, so it’s all things like that. I’m not going to go into concrete examples, but I think that if you look at what is going on in the community sector and in the academic world, for me there are things that are very similar, and it’s going to be even more obvious in the university because it’s a bigger machine than the community sector. The community sector remains a sector that… is somewhat controlled by governments due to public funding, so there’s less flexibility to put their mission and objectives into action, because there are criteria that have been put in place by funding that is by project, and not by mission. But I think that this is for me one of the examples that I can point to is that the community sector and the academic world, two different environments, but which for me have enabled me to understand better, especially at the university level, because as I said, I’m not very anchored like… For example in the doctoral environment, so I think that would be my example.
42:21
SD: Yeah, so to pick up on that, I think that... I had perhaps, as a result of evolving in the academic world, I had come to understand the way in which the institutions and its practices kind of shape the way in which certain individuals approach us or interact with us, so it was easier for me to envisage experiencing violence in the academic sector rather than in the community sector, because the institution kind of pushes us to do this type of…To have these type of interactions between us, whereas my experiences in the community sector, given that there’s often a cover of social progress, then benevolence once again, then solidarity, well it was very difficult for me to understand how certain individuals could have certain behaviors that were more inappropriate towards me, because I thought: I don’t understand, we’re in the community sector, so when… After being in the academic world for so long, I almost saw the community sector has a safe haven. So uh…I think that the exchanges we had during the PARR project may also have helped me a little to… Yeah to recalibrate myself a little, to say ok, yes there are unpleasant individuals in life, there always will be, but the community sector is also…There’s also these own influences that have played in the way people interact with us. I understand a little better why this type of dynamic can continue to happen and…Yeah. It allowed me to demonize the community sector a little less because I thought: it’s not supposed to happen. We are not being told that this happens. So yeah, I think it was one of the reality checks that I had, to be like, everybody’s got…Everybody’s got something. As you were just saying Samantha, there are really big funding issues in the community sector that can really put a lot of pressure on people, so I think that it’s maybe also things for me that completely were off my radar because I haven’t been in the sector long enough. I put my foot in, and I was like no no no it’s not for me, and I left. So definitely more…Let’s say, nuanced, the way I perceive the community sector, and maybe also be more severe towards the academic world because yes well, it’s an institution that guides that, but it’s not an excuse and it shouldn’t be an excuse to continue to tolerate certain behaviors.
44:47
AM: Absolutely. And me too, by being more in the academic sector, I took for granted that certain obstacles that we experience are normal almost, and I really trivialized the fact of experiencing multiple oppressions because I told myself, well that’s how it works, and a little, I’m too small to fight against this big institution. So starting with this idea, I told myself, the community sector, it’s the dream…It’s going to be much better, more adequate, but in fact, the community sector is struggling with the same demons as the institutional academic world, and for me, what has, what has been the biggest reality check was also to say to myself, I want to work in a community environment that resembles me, so with racialized people, and through exchanges and through certain discussions, I also realized that… Just because people look like me doesn’t mean they’ll protect me, just because community environments have similar values or a mission that matches or complements who I am as a person doesn’t mean I belong there, or that I’ll feel I can actually develop in those environments. So, it’s like I came away from the PARR project really thinking: woah. I had an idea, I had preconceptions, and then it all kind of unraveled in my mental map of what I imagined it could be.
SLU: I think that whether in the community sector or in the academic sector, people, even if they look like us, it doesn’t mean that they will think like us. I mean, there are a lot of people that will accept the fact that it’s okay to want to fit in this milieu because it’s the only way of like, answer the norms, so that was a shock too, because even after our session, the workshop, I noticed that some people, BIPOC, didn’t like betray me, but betrayed certain things about the struggles we lead, antiracism, and I’m like woah, ok. It’s not only in the community sector, it’s everywhere.
FHK: Thank you very much. I wanted to ask, after having been made aware of these realities, particularly those of communities a little more on the margins who are going through different experiences than yours, have you integrated a little more solidarity practices to support, or have you left with this idea in mind that you have to be careful, can you give some examples.
AM: I think that the thing that I came away with, and that has stayed with me ever since I took part in this day is really…The fact of producing things by and for us, but really making sure that it stays between and for us. That it serves us collectively, and that it can’t be used in a way that undermines our basic idea. I think that’s one of the things I’m coming with.
SD: Yeah, as Samantha said a bit earlier, no environment is perfect. So for my part, it’s true that there are certain practices, certain knowledge that I acquired while I was in the PARR days that I integrate a little bit more into my daily life, so I think that now, I feel a little less bad for example, about asking some of my closest friends, who are racialized, who are in the same circles as me, and then being more vulnerable in fact to the stress that I can experience because of my many intersections in the academic world especially. It’s not necessarily something that I used to do before because it’s never easy to be vulnerable, first of all. And it's always a bit strange to have this kind of resentment towards the environment in which you evolve and to which you’ve given so much of yourself for so many years. It’s still hard for me to navigate, but I’ve also stop believing that all environments are perfect. There are issues of…class, there are issues of identity, there are all kinds of things that will continue to divide struggles, whether we like it or not. And that being said, I think that it’s just a matter of remaining vigilant, and understanding that well sometimes, certain individuals are caught up in that machine. That doesn’t make them bad people, but it does mean that certain behaviors can recur. And Aurélie also said it really well, it’s not because you like me that you’ll necessarily understand what I’m going through, so it’s widened a bit, let’s say, my framework when I think about solidarity, yeah.
49:57
SLU: One very simple practice I’ve applied this weekend is to get together with my friends, mainly racialized women, just to talk openly and make art at the same time. I think that sometimes, we neglect this aspect, sometimes, it’s such simple things that we forget to do. To just be like, hi, how are you, remember that you’re the best, remember that you’re like brilliant, that yeah, just doi little check-ups like that to, that’s it, because sometimes we forget that we have to make ourselves feel good, we have to remember that what we’re saying is valid, so for me it’s a simple strategy as that this weekend, it’s been to create little spaces of care there with your friends.
AM: What you say reminds me of a strategy I applied without even realizing it, you named it and I realized that it was actually a strategy. I found myself at a dinner party talking with another racialized person about our experiences in the academic world, and thus living multiple forms of experiences that are more or less pleasant. And there were non-racialized people around the table who were silent, listening to us, and who at the end of the discussion said, oh my god, you told us about it, but I don’t think we understand how big it was, how overwhelming it was, how it could affect you. Then I said to myself, it’s crazy because I talked to them about it, but the fact that I was really vulnerable with another racialized person in front of us, it really helped them to understand the extent and complexity of what I was trying to name, and that maybe I didn’t have the right words at the time, but to be able to exchange with another person. And I think it must be a strategy to have these discussions too, so this same vulnerability that we’re so comfortable with other racialized people, to inflict it on other non-racialized people, that it doesn’t matter if it creates discomfort or not, but that afterwards, these people can reflect and say to themselves: ah ok yes, I understand, then maybe I can be a better ally in relation to that.
FHK: Thank you, thank you very much for sharing your experiences, especially your participation in the cohort workshops. It was a pleasure to exchange with you. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish the episode ?
SD: Yeah well despite all that, I think that it’s pretty, uh, extraordinary, that we had the opportunity to participate in the PARR cohorts. I think that the PARR project is really...Yeah I have a hard time to put into words what it represents, but it’s really played a very very important role in my life over the past year. It really gave me practical tools, it made me feel that my experiences were actually valid, and it helped me to finish my master thesis so…I really think that the existence of such a project is really necessary and fundamental for people like us. And I’m really happy that we’ve had this space to talk about it too, so really thanks to the organizers, the instigators, yeah.
AM: I think about it in fact, it really allowed me to recharge, it happened in September too, so, going back, applying for grants, everything that comes with being in academia and having to produce research, and having participated in the PARR project day, it kind of centered me but it also allowed me to say to myself, oh my god, what I’m going through is not only valid and shared, but I look at my colleagues around the table. They’ve gone even further than I have, and they’ve made it through it, so it’s okay, there are ways, there are strategies, I can do it.
SLU: Yeah well for me too, it was a great experience to understand that no matter which of these environments we’re navigating in, there are a lot of things that we can put in common and I said to myself, and I think, I remember it was with Marie Da Sylva, at one point she said, just us around this room, in the room we were in, if we were to create something just between us it would be so powerful, like creating our own research chair or our own organization, whatever, just within ourselves. I was so intimidated by all the knowledge, all the experiences, how it broke us down, how it put obstacles in our way, but despite all that, I think that we all have our space in society, we all have our place, and I think that we really need to have like a space or an organization that will highlight this knowledge, because all of us together, it was so strong. And I’m so grateful to the team, to the PARR project, because even within the team, it was by and for. There’s no other way, there’s no other way for people to get into that space, they’ve created it, and I think that we have to continue this kind of initiative because even in our communities, we never have that space to say to ourselves : ah finally, was what I did right, should I have done that, so I think that it reminds us to take a break from what we’re doing, and ask ourselves if our knowledge has been stolen, or not, or whatever, so I think it’s been a great experience, and I’d really like it to continue for us to be able to have spaces like these again.
FHK: Well thanks especially to you, thank you for participating in the workshops, thank you for sharing your experiences for this episode, thank you for accepting the invitation, you are incredible, you are wonderful *laughs*. Thank you to our listeners for listening to this podcast. We’d also like to thank all the collaborators of the project, without whom this podcast would not have been possible. At every stage of our activities, you’ve done a remarkable job of supporting and bringing your experiences and expertise to a significant number of Black, Indigenous and racialized women and non-binary people. We already have three people in front of us today. And as for us, we’ll be back for the next episode of the « En fleurs, plus en feu » podcast, see you soon.
*music*
THE END.